Mary/Catholicism/debate by Patrick Miron & unidentified person


[QUOTE]To be perfectly honest, these types of Marian devotions make me extremely uncomfortable. I was hoping someone could answer some specific questions for me about this concept of total consecration.

First of all, the name. I know the official name of this devotion is Total Consecration to Mary through Jesus, but most of the time it’s just referred to as Total Consecration to Mary, including what I assume is the most popular website for the devotion. The number one hit on Google which points to the calendar that you spoke about calls the devotional act “Total Consecration to Mary.” This is troubling, because if you totally consecrate yourself to Mary, where does that leave Jesus?[/QUOTE]

Are you aware that space is limited here on CAF? So replies too have to be limited

I’m a trained, certified Marian Catechist; a Lay Apostolate founded to teach, share and IF necessary defend our Catholic Faith. We are approved by Rome to do so.

Your question is a very common Protestant quarry. And at times we Catholics are even considered idolaters. When I am confronted with this; I share the following bible passages wherein God commands Moses to build for Him [God] 2 different idols.

Exo. 25: 18 & 20 “cherubim” [a class of angels] for the Ark of the Covenant

Num. 21: 8-9 “a fiery serpent”
Being commanded by God, we ought to be able to discern that these “idols” by definition; in no way, shape or form detract from God. Indeed, just the opposite as these idols by design and purpose actually lead Souls closer to God.

This then is the foundation for Marian Feast-days; Marian devotions and praying THROUGH Mary and the Saints; as all prayers END WITH GOD.
It is always the intent of the object or Saint that is the deciding worth; that determines merit or sin. Mary as both the Mother of our God Lk.1: 26-37; and Blessed with sufficient grace to live a life in full conformity with her exulted position of; as God choose to do in permitting her to be conceived without the stain of Original sin; and then for Mary to cooperate to the fullest possible extent with every future grace offered to her; thus permitting Mary to live her entire life for God and without any sinning at all.

IN an absolute sense this was not required; but was thought by God to be merited by her many prayers and sacrifices.

There is another factor; one seemingly little known or recognized that connects Marian devotions as the expressed Divine Wll of Her Son Jesus.

The scene is Christ Crucifixion; Jesus having been abandoned by all of the Apostles EXCEPT “John the beloved disciple;” the mother of Jesus and some other devoted women.

John.19:25-28 “So the soldiers did this. But standing by the cross of Jesus were his mother, and his mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Mag’dalene. When Jesus saw his mother, and the disciple whom he loved standing near, he said to his mother, “Woman, behold, your son!” Then he said to the disciple, “Behold, your mother!” And from that hour the disciple took her to his own home. After this Jesus, knowing that all was now finished, said (to fulfil the scripture), “I thirst.”

Here friends is what is notable about this passage:

Jesus mere moments from death recognizes His mother whom he will shortly address as “WOMEN”

Jesus also sees His Beloved apostle John standing below the Cross

Jesus then address Mary, His Mother as “WOMEN” [the generic name for the female gender]

“Women BEHOLD your Son!”

 Then Jesus address John the “disciple” [again using a generic term] and proclaims

“Behold YOUR mother!”

 Jesus: God has just given His mother to be the mother of “all humanity” for all time. “John” in this passage represents all of humanity.

Friends, do you find this to be difficult to accept? Then read the next verse.

V28: After this Jesus, knowing that all was now finished, said (to fulfil the scripture), “I thirst.”

By way of explanation of what He intended he SHOUTS “I THIRST!”

A very strange utterance so near death; having declined drink earlier Mt 26:34. So what is Christ teaching us here?

“I Thirst!” is proclaiming that despite ALL that Jesus had already done for US; He desired to do still more. That “More” took 3 forms

Jesus gave us His Church & His Faith beliefs

Jesus grace us the Seven Sacraments as “unending wells of His Sacramental Grace:

Baptism; Penance/Confession; Eucharist; Confirmation; Marriage; holy Orders and the Last Rites; each instituted by Him for the aid of salvation of Souls.

Then Jesus gave us His Mother. Both as the perfect model for us to follow and emulate; and as the Intercessor par-excellence; to LEAD Souls to Him by Her prayers and good works on our behalf.

So it is Jesus Himself that shares His Mother with all of humanity; knowing full well the efficacy of Her Power and close association with Her Son.

Marian devotions are not mandated for this precise reason:

Mary like Jesus gives us “Perfect” love and desires as does Her Son; “perfect” love be returned to Her to present to Jesus [Again ALL prayers End with God]. For us to generate and return “perfect & perfected” love to JESUS Through Mary; it has to be freely given. Mother Church knowing this; promotes the practices and devotions; but makes them OPITIONAL dependent on our freewill choice to go often to Mary’s well of perfect love.\; so that our Love through Her to Her Son, might too be perfected. Amen!

Lk 1: 32-35”He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Most High; and the Lord God will give to him the throne of his father David,  And Mary said to the angel, “How shall this be, since I have no husband?” And the angel said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be called holy, the Son of God”

V 46-49 “And Mary said, “My soul magnifies the Lord, and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior, for he has regarded the low estate of his handmaiden. For behold, henseforth all generations will call me blessed; for he who is mighty has done great things for me, and holy is his name.

{QUOTE]Here are a few of the quotes from de Montfort that I find uncomfortable.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE]Next, there are several references on that site and in the writings of St. Louis de Montfort that seem to be incongruous with Catholic teaching in the Catechism. For example according to de Montfort, there are plenty of “secrets” that are revealed only to those who consecrate themselves to Mary and pray the Rosary. There’s a word for this in Catholicism–Gnosticism, and it’s a heresy. If you could explain to me how it’s not Gnosticism, I’d appreciate it

“The difficulty, then, is how to arrive at the true knowledge of the most holy Virgin and so find grace in abundance through her. God, as the absolute Master, can give directly what he ordinarily dispenses only through Mary, and it would be rash to deny that he sometimes does so. However, St Thomas assures us that, following the order established by his divine Wisdom, God ordinarily imparts his graces to men through Mary. Therefore, if we wish to go to him, seeking union with him, we must use the same means which he used in coming down from heaven to assume our human nature and to impart his graces to us. That means was a complete dependence on Mary his Mother, which is true devotion to her.”

So basically de Monfort is saying that we are never free to pray to Jesus–we need to pray to Jesus through Mary. Always. Here he is again:

“We must never go to our Lord except through Mary, using her intercession and good standing with him. We must never be without her when praying to Jesus.”

And finally, to me, the most disturbing quote of all:

“Chosen soul, this devotion consists in surrendering oneself in the manner of a slave to Mary, and to Jesus through her, and then performing all our actions with Mary, in Mary, through Mary, and for Mary.”

Nothing about that sounds even vaguely idolatrous to you? Even as a Catholic, I have a hard time stomaching that, and for Protestants we are trying to convince that we do not worship Mary, they will never be able to get over a quote like that from a canonized saint. The Catechism, by the way, has none of this, and certainly (as you correctly stated) does not require any devotional activity to ensure that God hears our prayers. In fact, all of these devotional activity seems to only have one source–de Montfort himself.

Can you please help me make sense of this? I do not ask these questions out of spite or ill-will, but with an honest heart searching for the truth in the Gospel.[/QUOTE] END OF QUOTE POINTS OF DEBATE

From a magisterial perspective; what you share is OPTIONAL personal piety of a great Saint. It is not bundled with the NORMS of our faith; which is not to say that there is no merit in what this Saint shares.

It is; or at least could be better understood from the personal view of Jesus Himself. GOD; I repeat GOD choose Mary to be the Mother of Jesus from literally BILLIONS of options. NO human being was Blessed with an Immaculate Conception; NO other human being was from the time of Her birth was absolutely sinless; which required the constant exercise of Mary’s freewill. No other creature has been Blessed by GOD, who choose Mary to be exalted:

Lk 1: 46-49 “And Mary said, “My soul magnifies the Lord, and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior, for he has regarded the low estate of his handmaiden. For behold, henseforth all generations will call me blessed; for he who is mighty has done great things for me, and holy is his name”

Mary is according to Her Son’s desire; is to be exalted. It is a Doctrine that Christ choose Mary, His Mother to be the Mediatrix of ALL graces. Which is to say the dispenser [not the origin; and not even the one, the source who determines who will be offered which graces or in what amounts. This would seem to be a responsibility of Her Son. So we can better understand Christ feelings extend far deeper than any normal mother-son relationship. WHY is this?

It is because in the entire history of creation of “Created Beings”; only Mary has fully met God’s expectations for humanity; which is why She is considered theologically to be the “New Eve”; the one GOD promised in Genesis 3:  14-15 “The LORD God said to the serpent, “Because you have done this, cursed are you above all cattle, and above all wild animals; upon your belly you shall go, and dust you shall eat all the days of your life.  I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed; he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel.”  

The Church; through extensive review; aided by GOD Himself, through miracles wrought through the good-graces St Louis de Montfort; assures us that whatever position he held in regard to Mary; whatever devotions he proclaimed; WERE considered worthy of Canonized Sainthood, a process that is God approved.

This POST author shares only a part of this Saints religiously: Saint Louis de Montfort, was from a young age VERY devoted to Christ and Worshiped Him often: Here are a few quotes from the Catholic Encyclopedia:

“From his childhood, he was indefatigably devoted to prayer before the Blessed Sacrament, and, when from his twelfth year he was sent as a day pupil to the Jesuit college at Rennes, he never failed to visit the church before and after class.” & During seventeen years he preached the Gospel in countless towns and villages. As an orator he was highly gifted, his language being simple but replete with fire and divine love. His whole life was conspicuous for virtues difficult for modern degeneracy to comprehend: constant prayerlove of the poorpoverty carried to an unheard-of degree, joy in humiliations and persecutions” End Quotes

This EWTN site post the Canonization Process in Detail, including Miracles which GOD has to approve; for further evidence of a badly skewed perspective of this Saint, who no doubt is a Sain due in great part to his devotions to Mary.

God Bless you,


May Mary be ever on our lips and remembrance of her always in our hearts [Fr. John Hardon]










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I am an Informed and fully practicing Roman Catholic

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